Talk:Mace Windu

From the Encyclopedia of Speculative Fiction - http://encyclopedia.wizards.pro

Contents 1 Jedi Guardian? 2 Biography 3 Portrayal 4 Quote 5 Human/Near-Human 6 Outsparred by Dooku? 7 Final Battle 8 Image 9 Vaapad 10 Dead, Yes, Dead 11 Let's Get this Straight 12 B.M.F.

Jedi Guardian?

• The so-called Guardian-Consular dichotomy is based on RPG material by Wizards of the Coast, which were the basis for the computer games series Knights of the Old Republic. Though I don't automatically disregard Rpg-material when it comes to judging canonicity, one has to understand that the Dungeons&Dragons-inspired approach (character classes) does not translate well into the Star Wars universe. I find no film reference on it whatsoever and no evidence that the so-called guardians are better fighters and worse diplomats. Therefore I edited the passage that basically implied the following: As a Guardian, Windu should not be as good a diplomat as he is. --Gen.d 18:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree. The Guardian/Consular separation was only a game convention (and the writers of the RPG confirmed this) and was not supposed to be an in-universe separation, until the writes of KOTOR made it that, and came up with the ridiculous lightsaber color scheme to go along with it. Mention it, but also make not of his skills as a diplomat. I suppose we can fudge it and Yoda's fighting skill because they are ultra-high-level. :) QuentinGeorge 22:25, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't even mention that they dubbed him a Guardian. He is a Councillor, a spokesperson, a chair or whatever. All Jedi are "guardians of peace and justice", some (including Mace Windu) counseled the upper echelons of galactic politics. Once we include a title such as Guardian in the encyclopedia, we essentially agree with this unprecedented dichotomy. For my part, I don't. --Gen.d 12:54, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
      • I wouldn't put any faith into the classes etc. IU wise, it's possible that the practice of classing and saber colours died out before the Yavin era (possibly during the near extinction of the order in Kotor II?). Either way, evidence from the movie seems to show excellent Force ability and excellent saber skill to go hand in hand, rather than the opposite shown in games, etc. I think it all needs to be discounted as game mechanic, just as we wouldn't say, for example, that Malak had 167 hit points at the time of his death. --Fade 22:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Biography

• Can it be that he became a Jedi Master and joined the Council at age 13? I think Episode III contradicts this statement - Obi-Wan says that Anakin was the youngest Jedi ever to join the Council. (Ki-Adi-Mundi not being a Master in Ep.I is contradicted as well...)--Gen.d 15:24, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Mace joined the Council at the age of 28, when Obi-Wan was 13. Anakin was 23 when he joined the council. Note, the text says "before his thirteeth" ie, 30th. QuentinGeorge 21:55, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
    • I stand corrected. So Anakin beats Mace Windu by a couple of years. Ki-Adi Mundi is still an issue, though. --Gen.d 22:35, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
      • For those who care, here's Tasty Taste's timeline for Mace's life, from this thread:

-72 birth "year"

-58 builds lightsaber

-50 fights Gorm the Dissolver

<-44 joins the Jedi Council (he's on the Council in the Jedi Apprentice series)

-32 Mission to Malastare (Emissaries to Malastare)

-22 Battle of Geonosis (Attack of the Clones)

-21 Mission to Dantooine

-21 Mission to Haruun Kal (Shatterpoint)

-19 (Episode III)

• Ki-Adi was in the process of becoming a Master during TPM, according to Tasty's Blog - Kwenn

Portrayal

• Is fan speculation about his lightsaber's blade colour encyclopedia-worthy? Especially since he proved not to be a traitor, but a hero? --Gen.d 13:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Removed the following passage: This caused much speculation among the fans, some of whom believed his purple blade signified a forthcoming plot twist that would reveal Windu as a Jedi traitor (basing such speculation on the fact that blue and red (light and dark in terms of lightsaber colour) make purple when mixed, suggesting that Mace was both light and dark.)

Quote

That is horrible, asking for permission to remove. --Imp 10:06, 30 Jul 2005 (UTC)

• It's quite long. Do you have suggestion for a better one? – Aidje _talk 02:18, 17 Oct 2005 (UTC) Add "your under arrest chancellor"

What are you taking about? I know its long, but it shows that Mace Windu is indeed a B.M.F. -- SFH 18:51, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Human/Near-Human

As far as I know, only the Wizards.com site makes the claim Windu is a near-human, rather than a baseline human. The OS databank, Wizards RPG rulebook, NEGTC all say "Human". I think it should be changed back to "Human" or "Korunnai Human". QuentinGeorge 06:14, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)

• Also, doesn't "human" have a different definition for RPGs? For example, in Dungeons and Dragons, elves aren't human. But humans and elves can produce fertile offspring. It's gameplay, not genetics, right?-LtNOWIS 06:58, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)
  • Yeah, even the designers admitted the way they'd been using "Near-Human" in the RPG was different to the rest of the literature. QuentinGeorge 07:06, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)
    • For one thing, Korun is singular, Korunnai plural. Also, the Korunnai differ from baseline humans in their abilitiy to resist poisonous gases longer, which is a genetically inherited trait, and they a,lso inherit Force-sensitivity, so they are definitely as near-human as Hapans and Kiffar.
      • For one thing, they're force-sensitive because they are descendants of Jedi Humans - that doesn't make them near-human, just humans descended from an exclusively force-sensitive line. 2) The resistance to poisonous gas seems to come entirely from the Wizards.com stats. Is it stated anywhere in Shatterpoint? QuentinGeorge 06:01, 30 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Outsparred by Dooku?

What's the source which confirms that Dooku would outspar Windu? I find it weird because we have seen him outspar Palpatine. Why would exactly Dooku defeat him? - TopAce, 7th September, 23:01 (GMT+1)

Final Battle

Some of you may want to space me just for even thinking this out loud, but I've always said be proud of what you think, so here it goes. As I read the Episode III novelization, it appeared the Mace kept pushing himself to keep up with Palpatine, and that Vaapad was using your "darkness" with out letting it use you. And also, Mace's love for the Republic, and his reaction that the Jedi Order was under the control of the Sith also gave me some pause. Finally, the fact that Mace was going to kill Palpatine unarmed (but I admit, not defenseless), leads me to what may be a horrorfying thought?

In his last battle, could Mace Windu have been touching the dark side? -- SFH 00:28, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Image

Anyone shares my opinion that a duelling image would be better than the current one about the final battle? TopAce, 13:14 GMT +1, 1 Oct 2005

Vaapad

That's right. Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq were masters of Vaapad and both turned to the dark side.

Dead, Yes, Dead

• Windu is dead. Just like Plo Koon is dead, just like Aayla Secura is dead. Don't believe me? Read the databank.

The final blast bodily lifted him into the air, sending his form hurling into the Coruscant skies, to crash lifelessly somewhere in the vast cityscape below.

See the word "lifelessly"? That means "dead". Deal with it. QuentinGeorge 09:56, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

The problem is, his death wasn't actually seen. And, given the abilities he displayed in the Clone Wars animated series and even when he fell from a great height in AOTC. These points lead to his survival. We must look to the actual EU, not something that reports on it. Adamwankenobi 09:58, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

No, that's not a problem at all. The databank is canon. More so, I might add, than the exaggerated antics in the cartoon. We're not going to go into this tedious debate again, otherwise anons will start vandalising the articles of the other Purge Jedi. QuentinGeorge 10:02, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I would agree with you on this, but, the thing is, his death can't be completely proven. Just like in real historical documents, you can't assume things without proof. In this case of course, EU works are the "documents" of proof. If there is an EU work (the OS isn't, it merely reports the EU) that specifically reports that he died, then I will accept it. But not until then. The articles must reflect actual canon, not the databank, whose job is to report the EU, not create it. And the databank can't be "more" caon than the CW animated series, suince they are both C-canon. The only way the databank could be is if it were directly written by Lucas, or directly based off of his thoughts. And it's not, it combines assumptions with EU, with film-related things, etc. Adamwankenobi 10:22, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• Pardon me for butting in. I too think that he's as dead as a slab of bantha meat on a frying pan, but it is a fact that among fans there are many who refuse to think of him as being dead (several fanfics describe ways in which he might have survived) - this is probably because he's so popular. The polls are not indicative of whether he's dead or not, but they are indicative of what the fans think, and it is my opinion that the polls should be included under the 'Behind the scenes' section. KEJ 10:44, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • I dislike this. Fans have come up with crazy theories to negate nearly EVERY in-universe death, including Chewbacca, Anakin Solo, Darth Maul, Grievous, Aayla Secura, Plo Koon, Nom Anor and pretty much any popular character who has died. We shouldn't coddle there beliefs, we're only interested in recording what is canon and, whether you like it or not, Windu's death is. Period. QuentinGeorge 10:54, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
• Does George Lucas' commentary suffice for you? Or if you want an-universe source, how about the fact we seen Windu fall out of the window, and then Yoda clutches his chest, feeling the disturbance caused by his fellow Jedi's death? And on the databank, you are incorrect. It IS a valid source - as valid as any other C-level source. You can't just pick and choose. He is dead, period. What "fans" believe has nothing to do with it. Polls have been run on such questions as "Is Grievous a force user?" or "How long is the Executor?". QuentinGeorge 10:48, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • The New Essential Chronology -

Palpatine then charred Mace Windu with Force lightning, sending Mace out the window to his death.

Is that enough? Short of having "HE'S DEAD." etched into the side of a mountain, I'm not sure what else you want. QuentinGeorge 11:00, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

This thread has been locked. ;-) --Azizlight 11:09, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I need an official printed source, who's job isn't to report the EU. Only then will I accept he's dead. See, for instance, Palpatine fell down into the reactor, ROTJ would make you think he was dead, but then he actually survives. As much as I hate that idea, I'll accept that, as it has been clearly documented in an actual EU text. Another example is Boba's death. ROTJ makes you assume he died, but an EU text says he lived. If you can give me one text clearly saying that he died, then l accept it. Adamwankenobi 11:29, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• QuentinGeorge, dude, I told you I agree that Mace is dead and gone, and I don't think fanfic-stuff should be included in the in-universe sections. I just find it an interesting fact that Windu's so popular that even though he got fried by force lightning, had his arm amputated, and got thrown out the window and probably splattered all over some lower level street, fans still deny that he is dead. That's why I said the polls and reference to the fanfics should be included in 'Behind the scenes' and as far as I understand the 'Behind the scenes' section deals with all the out-of-universe stuff. You don't have to carve anything into any side of any mountain to convince me that Mace's dead, because I also think that he's dead as a very dead fish. I repeat, I too think that Mace Windu is dead and I have never said that he wasn't KEJ 11:36, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh, I wasn't arguing with you. Mainly with "Adamwankenobi" who, despite given FOUR (!) separate sources, refuses to accept it. I should note that its hardly a common belief - even in that self-selecting poll almost 70% agreed "Yes, of course." he was dead. And another 20% "weren't sure". That puts the "believers" in a statistically insignificant 10%. QuentinGeorge 11:39, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Let's Get this Straight

• I need an official printed source, who's job isn't to report the EU.

New Essential Chronology - Official printed source, and it doesn't just report the EU.

Only then will I accept he's dead. See, for instance, Palpatine fell down into the reactor, ROTJ would make you think he was dead, but then he actually survives.

He didn't survive. He came back to life in a clone body. Totally different situation.

As much as I hate that idea, I'll accept that, as it has been clearly documented in an actual EU text.

New Essential Chronology.

Another example is Boba's death. ROTJ makes you assume he died, but an EU text says he lived.

Boba Fett was never stated as dead in the EU, unlike Windu.

If you can give me one text clearly saying that he died, then l accept it.

NEW ESSENTIAL CHRONOLOGY

QuentinGeorge 11:44, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

The New Essential Chronology is a REFERENCE book. And a reference book does not simply come up with stuff on its own. There must be an EU source it reports on. The Boba and Palps examples I gave you were meant to be examples of a disputed death or survival, anf the EU actually proving one way or the other. If you can give an official text THAT IS NOT A REFERENCE BOOK, WHICH REPORTS, then I will accept it, as I said before. Adamwankenobi 12:08, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Actually, you are wrong there, Wankenobi, The New Essential Chronology is not just a reference book, and DOES "come up with stuff on its own". For example, New Essential Chronology tells us that Humans originated on Coruscant, and that is new information. There are many other new pieces of information too. MACE IS DEAD, GET OVER IT. There might be a slight chance that he will be revived in future EU, just like Boba or Palpy, but for now, he is officially as dead as the dead horse you are flogging to death. --Azizlight 13:22, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

There is no emotion... - Sikon [Talk] 06:29, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

emotion schmotion :-) --Azizlight 07:49, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• • • The ROTS novelization. It was based on the script by GL, and GL personally went over the novel line by line and approved it [1]...is that official enough for you? StarNeptune 13:30, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
• I've added a little note in the Behind the Scenes section, saying that a small number of fans are not convinced that Windu died. Hmm, reminds me of the people who insisted that Palpatine and Sidious were 2 different people. --Azizlight 13:38, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

B.M.F.

I don't see the point of censorin what 'B.M.F.' stands for.

• And I'm curious as to where the info that his BMF request was turned down comes from. Thanos6 01:53, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)